(NOTE: This post was published in 2010. It was adapted from an email I sent to a group of my friends/relatives upon returning from a pilgrimage to Medjugorje in August of that year)
Hello Good People!
Many of you are aware I recently returned from a trip to Medjugorje. I know that among good, orthodox, devout Catholics there are varying opinions on this place, so I want to let you in on my own thinking. Whatever you decide, let us not allow any division to occur from this; we have too much in common with each other; things that we share with so few in today’s world!
First I must touch on why I went there; it was not my plan. I vaguely intended on getting there eventually, but only at least after Rome, the Holy Land, and Ireland. God made this trip happen. First I was inspired by one of the most orthodox, holy, zealous, on fire priests I have ever met to look more into it a few Sundays ago. The next day I simply typed in “Medjugorje Pilgrimage” into Google, not expecting anything. Lo and behold the first result directed me to a pilgrimage leaving in a few days that perfectly filled the amount of time I had left until my new job started. Still “certain” nothing would happen (since these things are organized months in advance) I filled out an inquiry form online which surprisingly got me a response within minutes. He assumed I was looking to book next year’s pilgrimage, and when I informed him otherwise he told me that though this was the last possible minute, I would get there if Jesus and Mary wanted me there. Soon after he responded saying that it was a miracle, but there was one spot left on all the flights and one room left in the house. My time there corresponded with the “Youth Festival,” by far the most crowded time of the year at Medjugorje (I heard my tour guide there speaking about how impossible it was that there was a spot for me). Astonished, I started looking for my passport; unable to find it anywhere for hours I finally prayed “God, if you want me on this trip, enlighten my mind as to the location of my passport. If you do not want me to go, do not let me find it in time.“
It was in the very next spot I looked. You can see that for me to forego this trip would have been an abandonment of God’s will.
For most of the time I knew about Medjugorje I have been strongly opposed to it. When I first heard about it I was perusing a schismatic ultra-traditionalist website and they simply lied and falsely quoted Mary at Medjugorje as saying “all religions are equal.” She never said or implied that, but I never bothered to look into it further. For what she actually said, scroll down on this page: http://www.medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20. After that, my dislike for Medjugorje was maintained by my distaste for what I deemed “boring” messages. This was a huge issue for me up to very recently, when it suddenly hit me. Sure, compared to much of the Bible and other sources, these messages can sometimes be comparatively bland. (update 8/13/2010: remember, ‘sometimes’! I think the messages are very inspiring and beautiful, but we need not ignore that they do usually carry a different tone than some parts of scripture and other divine sources. Mary has her reasons for this, I believe.) But I was not considering the audience. These messages are anything but boring to the typical lukewarm/lapsed Catholic or new ager/secular humanist they are intended to convert. For me, it is nothing new to hear “You do not know that you cannot be happy without my Son” from Mary. But that is Earth-shattering to a lapsed Catholic or new ager who seeks happiness everywhere but Christ.
Having gotten past that, I saw that there are basically three descriptions possible of Medjugorje: as being from Heaven, from hell, or fraud.
I will tell you why it is not from hell. Satan gains nothing from what goes on there; daily he is beaten mercilessly by what happens at Medjugorje. Let me give you a glimpse into this by sharing some of the things I saw: 40,000 people gathered in such reverent prayerful silence before the Holy Eucharist that an unknowing passerby could have stumbled upon them. Homilies condemning great evils like homosexuality, abortion, and promiscuity. A priest announcing to the congregation of 40 thousand prior to communion “Holy Communion is received on the tongue!” Adoration meditations urging people to reject any new age methods they may have undertaken; reiki, yoga, transcendental meditation, palm reading, etc. A sense of penance I have seen nowhere else in the world; kneeling is expected everywhere but pads and pillows are nowhere to be seen (only marble floors, rocks, dirt, gravel, pavement, and grass), people of all ages and physical conditions scaling jagged rocky slopes (often barefoot) to pray by a crucifix and a statue of Mary, and prayer gatherings despite the late night hours or glaring midday sun. Massive lines for confessions with the dozens of priests gathered at any given time to hear them. Signs next to the Holy Water fonts banning immodest dress and pointing out Mary’s condemnation of abortion and divorce in her apparitions. The sight and sound of rosaries being prayed in more languages than I could name wherever I stumbled upon a group of people; in the paths, on the hills and mountains, in the churches and chapels. And we all know about the flood of miraculous conversions proceeding from Medjugorje.
Many will still argue that though producing good things, and not Satanic, it is at least fraudulent. Please consider what would be required to maintain this fraud. Six Catholic children (one only 10 years old) had to agree to or be convinced to fabricate an enormous lie and maintain this lie perfectly, without any denial, for thirty years. Expert psychological training far surpassing anything CIA agents go through being undertaken on these children prior to 1981 to prepare them for 30 years of boldly proclaiming a lie with no hint of dishonesty showing through. Expertly crafted messages memorized before each apparition so that despite a constant flow of them for 30 years, nothing has merited the Church’s condemnation which any error could have done over these decades (yet no apparitions are ever approved until they cease). Acting capabilities not seen among Hollywood’s greatest to fake the apparitions and deceptive skills surpassing Houdini’s to confound all the scientific tests performed on them. A degree of deceptive courage truly worthy of the history books to allow them to come to talk after talk, interview after interview and tell of what they have neither seen nor heard; an impossible cunning to create perfect consistency founded upon a lie (remember what Lincoln said; “no man has a good enough memory to make a successful liar”). The duping of hordes of holy men and women who simply cannot be so easily duped (especially Venerable Pope John Paul II and Blessed Teresa of Calcutta). Pulling all that off would make “Mission Impossible” look like a walk in the park.
But my conclusion is not reached merely through process of elimination. There is plenty of direct evidence that the apparitions are from Heaven. Miracles abound at Medjugorje. I myself, though I would not preach this with 100% certainty, saw the miracle of the sun on two occasions. Several weeks before, when Medjugorje was as far from my mind as could be, I remember driving and pausing at a strange sight I had never before seen: two solitary patches of rainbow on either side of the sun. The patches were very clear yet there had been no rain and there was very little cloud cover. I wondered what was going on, and even pondered if it could be something miraculous. But shortly afterwards I forgot about it until I was at Medjugorje. I was speaking with a very knowledgeable and holy woman who told me that many who see the miracle of the sun will sometimes afterwards, back home, see a sign in the sky of two patches of rainbow appearing without cause on both sides of the sun; precisely what I saw. Mary provided me the gift of switching around the usual order of these events! Now I could not say to myself, as I otherwise would have, “perhaps I only saw it because I was looking for it.” I also saw a large glow in the clouds late one night, while I was sitting and praying on apparition hill. It was going in circles and my first reaction was “a searchlight,” since I sometimes see that here in the states. Rethinking that, I realized there was absolutely no beam leading up to this glow, nor source of light on the ground, and the radius of the circular path it was following was far too small for a searchlight to be causing it; the mechanics would be impossible. It also clearly had nothing to do with any man made flying object. I believe also that the order and peace maintained there was itself miraculous; the events I attended drew tens of thousands of youth, yet I almost never saw a police officer. In all the hours I spent at these varied events; from huge masses and seemingly unending processions to thousands climbing rocky slopes at the same time, I saw only two police cars on one occasion and two police officers on another occasion. I only mention these things because I myself witnessed them; they are tiny compared to the numerous other miraculous proofs of Medjugorje
Years before the apparitions started, the town of Medjugorje found itself in need of a new parish church. St. James was then built; for “some” reason far bigger than the town needed, and dedicated to this great patron saint of pilgrims (50 million pilgrims have visited Medjugorje). The statue of the resurrected Jesus next to this parish church is constantly secreting liquid from its right knee. The statue is made of thick copper, perhaps with some concrete in the middle, and is seated on a marble surface. I see no possibility of capillary action and no source of water to even make this occur in the first place. Countless thousands have seen the miracle of the sun. It goes on and on.
I admit I am not without my concerns. Three main ones come to mind, but none of them shake my belief in these apparitions.
-First, I have seen fluffy conversions. I do not think these are anywhere near the bulk of conversions that come from Medjugorje, but I am speaking of the type of conversion that rejects fear of the Lord as a good thing and neglects hatred of evil, the conversion that places little concern on modest dress, and the conversion that forgoes sacramentals (I am of the firm conviction that no serious Catholic should waste neck space with vain trinkets that serve no eternal purpose, considering the enormous promises given to us if we wear the scapular, the miraculous medal, St. Benedict’s medal, and many others.) This is easy to answer; first, many holy people could easily look at the extent of my own conversion with disgust. Second, I wonder what these people would be like without Medjugorje, or what they were like before Medjugorje!
-Second, hand waving and clapping during mass disturbs me greatly. Anything that takes the attention off the Holy Sacrifice and turns it upon ourselves is detrimental. Pope Benedict, as Cardinal Ratzinger, called that tendency “utterly fruitless.” I am guessing this was due more to the ongoing Youth Festival than Medjugorje in general; and if I am to abandon Medjugorje based on this then I must to be consistent also abandon the Vatican for having that at World Youth Day masses, which I of course will not do.
-Third, I was bothered that I heard no announcement cautioning non-Catholics and those not in a state of grace not to receive Communion. This is an essential duty for any large mass that will likely draw more than the usual crowd. It was always done at EWTN when I visited, but I have almost never seen it done elsewhere, so I cannot single out Medjugorje.
I did buy into other erroneous arguments and red herrings in my anti-Medjugorje days. I now frown upon what seems to be the intellectual dishonesty I had to exert to believe them.
1. “The local Bishop opposes it”- Perhaps Mary intends to teach us an important lesson here; that the Holy See supersedes our local Bishops. It is an important lesson to learn. Not realizing that lesson, many Catholics are fooled into thinking contraception is OK, women will soon be priests, homosexual acts are not sinful, etc. The Vatican has specifically taken the matter out of his (Bishop Ratko’s) hands, so those demanding that others submit to his opinion on the matter are committing the very act they are attempting to condemn: refusing to submit to valid Church authority.
Important to note is that despite the nasty and unfounded criticisms constantly hurled at Medjugorje and the many who have made themselves enemies of this place; the pilgrims in attendance, priests running the parish, and most importantly the seers themselves seem to be of constant peace, docility, and perseverance in their unbreakable focus on the message itself (instead of succumbing to the temptation to become distracted by constant self defense): Rosary, Eucharist, Confession, Fasting, Scripture.
2. “None of the visionaries are nuns or priests, and they live in nice houses”- Of the many people I have included in this email, none of them are nuns and only a couple are priests. “But I am not claiming to have seen Mary,” One may respond. What does that change? We claim knowledge of Truth; a Truth so glorious and immense that the slightest hint of it should be enough to propel a soul into a life of complete self sacrifice without the slightest hesitation. We receive the Holy Eucharist; a privilege that makes a Marian apparition sound like playing cards. Let we who are not cloistered nuns or monks dare not criticize the Medjugorje seers for doing as we ourselves do.
I should also point out that I walked by a couple of their houses each day I was in town. There is nothing extraordinary about them.
All that being said, I know I have been wrong before. I am very grateful that there is currently a Vatican commission underway, and whatever its ruling is I will submit myself entirely to it. I know also there are many things both on the pro and the con side that I have not touched on, but I wanted this as specific to my own experience as possible. In conclusion, it seems to me that it would be quite difficult to maintain consistency while disbelieving in Medjugorje but believing in Fatima, Lourdes, La Salette, etc.. The degree of obstinate skepticism that need be applied to Medjugorje for its denial would seem to far exceed that required to deny any of the currently approved apparitions.
So pray your rosary daily, go to Holy Mass daily, go to confession at least monthly, Fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, and read Scripture daily!
In Christ, Through Mary,
Dan O’Connor
Daniel O'Connor's Blog 
I do believe in what happens in Medjugorie. I am from Australia and I am part of a prayer group here. A couple of years ago I started to become very dedicated to Padre Pio, the Rosary and Mother Mary. One night I had a dream. The phone rang and my husband said it’s for you. I went to the phone and this lady spoke to me. She said I would like to come to your prayer group. I said “Yes, yes please come.” Then I said to her, “Where are you from?” She told me “I’m from Medjugorie”. Then I woke up. At that time I didn’t know about Medjugorie. I asked my husband in the morning, “What happens in Medjugorie?” He told me Mother Mary appears there. I remember watching the movie about Fatima and at the end of the movie the wonderful miracle with the sun. I was always thinking how much I would love to have that miracle here, and how the miracle of the sun happens in Medjugorie as well. A few months after that dream we had our prayer group on Sunday and afterwards we went outside. I couldn’t believe my eyes when we looked up into the sky and we were staring at the sun. So beautiful. It was dancing and changing colours. This lasted for a few minutes. We were looking directly at the sun. Thank you to Mother Mary because I know now that in my dream it was her that was talking to me and she did come to visit all of us, just like she does in Medjugorie. Pray the Rosary! Pray! Pray! Pray!
I have been in Medjugorje over 30 times, more often as a tour guide. I have seen countless miracles, from the sun dancing to absolutely impossible conversions, of all types, priests included. I took there and brought back nearly two thousand people entirely changed, with very few exceptions (the very few were usually esoteric and or lefebvreian types). Medjugorje is heaven on earth. Heaven on earth. I wish I could go there every year, I wish I could take there all my relatives and friends, atheists and communists. It is heaven on earth. I feel like I am living in exile. Thank you for your blog. Our lady must be pleased with you, no doubt.
So sorry for the delay in approving this – the message got lost in a big pile of starred emails. Thank you for this comment and God bless you!
Looks like people are like from old times need to see miracles to believe miracle happens every sunday at mass what other proof one needs God is as close as a prayer pilgrimage is nice depends where as for medjagoria I think its false for
Many reasons one of them religions are egual
..medjugorje>>>Pelgianism, Montanism, Jansenism, with a dash of Quietism :-)
You’ve got it all wrong – it’s Prayer, Eucharist, Confession, Scripture, Fasting. :-)
I am wondering where you stand on this now that the Magisterium has ruled that the faithful should not visit or participate in the Medjugorje visions / visionaries alleged “revelations”?
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2694/nuncio_reaffirms_medjugorje_apparitions_not_approved.aspx#.UoedeCg-t8s
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cdf-bars-participation-in-events-assuming-truth-of-medjugorje/
Thank you for asking, Michael! That is not what Archbishop Vigero said, but alas, there is no change. This is not a ruling on the validity of Medjugorje; that, of course, is yet to come.
In a word, my stand is obedience to the Church. The Church hasn’t ruled yet.
Dr. Mark Miravalle has a great (short — please read it!) piece on this: http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/2013/11/medjugorje-followers-obey-pray/
Seems to me the sheer weight of positive testimony and authentic religious practice indicates
that what is happening is acceptable to God….. do you think He would have allowed any
improper representations of His chosen Beloved Mother of Jesus to exist for even one hour,
let alone 30 years?
The incredible longevity of the phenomenon should be seen as specially conceded time to allow
as many as possible to be reached and consider the state of their lives/souls before …….?
Hi. I truly only make these comments with the intent to help. You state in your artice that “satan gains nothing” from what goes on in Medjugorje. I respectfully disagree. Medjugorje is filled with well-intended people who believe that by “living the Gospa’s messages,” people can be saved (cleverly referred to as “converted”). Unfortunately, such a belief is anti-Christ. Jesus (and the apostles) preached explicitly that ONLY though faith in Jesus and his redemptive act on the cross is anyone saved. At the cross, Jesus said “It is finished”. The Gospa says “it is not finished. Do more and more and more.” I used to devoutly believe in Medjugorje. I fasted on bread and water twice per week, pray pray prayed, visited Medjugorje, even got to spend some one on one time with two of the visionaries, However, I ultimately came to see that Medjugorje is distorting the gospel beyond recognition – the Gospa does not preach salvation through Jesus. If anything, she preaches that one can, by their willful obedience to her messages, save themselves. The more one knows Medjugorje, the less they know their individual need for a Savior. Yes – I am very aware of all the supposed “good fruit” there – but when one looks at scripture to see what Jesus regarded as “good fruit”, he always defined it in terms of “knowing Him” (Matt. 7:23) or “remaining in Him” (John 15). Let’s be honest – after a person fully immerses themselves in Medjugorje – is Jesus really at the center of it all?
Dear Catholic readers; it appears that our friend Steve condemns Medjugorje with precisely the same reasoning that Protestants in general condemn all Marian devotion. I hope this is a sign to you all that Medjugorje is indeed true Catholic Marian devotion.
Dear Steve; if you wish to imitate Christ, then imitate also His own following of the Fourth Commandment (for He followed all of the Commandments better than any other); that is to say, honoring His Father (God the Father) and His mother (the Blessed Virgin Mary). Openly condemning an apparition is a very dangerous thing; before you continue to do so with Medjugorje I hope you at least re-read her messages and recognize that nothing could be more Christ-centered than they are. http://www.medjugorje.org/messagesall.htm
In Christ, through Mary,
Daniel
we should pray to GOD only and not statues and if you want to ash MARY to pray for you then you ask her. statues don’t speak or listen
I agree. But statues do a wonderful job of aiding our prayer; merely kneeling in front of one does not amount to praying to the physical statue itself.
Daniel,
“Openly condemning an apparition is a very dangerous thing; before you continue to do so with Medjugorje I hope you at least re-read her messages and recognize that nothing could be more Christ-centered than they are.”
With all due respect, it seems as if you’re putting these alleged messages and apparitions above even the sacred word of the gospels, which hold only the central morals, teachings, and beliefs that form the foundation of Catholicism (this doesn’t mean that the Old Testament is moot, but these teachings in the New are nonetheless critically important). Does what you say mean that these messages, while simple with a ring of truth, are far more important than reflecting on the public revelation of the gospels or treating our fellow man the way Jesus did and does (John 13:34-35)? Or the sacraments celebrated in the holy mass? Please clarify your point.
I’ve read some of the messages of the Medjugorje seers, and do believe that most, if not all, hold truth to them that we might follow ourselves. I have felt that, with Medjugorje, the reason why the place is so spiritually wealthy is because many people travel there truly seeking God through prayer and reconciliation, and, as a result, the small town has become a spiritual haven for a great many people. The good fruits are numerous in the forms of conversions, vocations, and spiritual enlightenment because everyone there-through the sincere act of prayer, penance, and the like-have together formed a place where it seems that Heaven is truly present. If more people at home sought God like they do in Medjugorje, praying with truthful vigor and passion rather than reciting lines, then I’d imagine that the world would be a happier and more peaceful place (on a side note, I think the day of fasting and prayer called by Pope Francis in September did work for at least the time being-no one bombed Syria, and the power of sincere prayer was again proven). It also gives tremendous credence to “where two or three gather in my name, there am I in their midst.” (Matthew 18:20).
However, this does not mean that that everything that goes on in or which concerns Medjugorje is pish-posh and a merry little walk in the park. We are told that “by their fruits ye shall know them,” (Matthew 7:20). And, while there have been a great deal of wonderful fruits in the form of the aforementioned vocations and such, there have also been quite a few bad apples to spring forth as well, besides some people having a not so hot time over there. Both the pro side and the anti side are quick to point out the grievance of disobedience in regard to the alleged seers or the local bishop, for example. Division on either side of the “Is Medjugorje true or false” argument is unbelievable and saddening-highlighted when individuals on either side begin to cruelly mock their brother or take the liberty to publicly shame them because one’s view and logic differ from their own. I’ve seen this in action at my old parish. Some devotees were kind and gentle, loved God with a radiance, and treated all their friends, family, and students with love and grace. Others, however, were among the most conniving, manipulative, and selfish people that have ever walked the face of the earth, thinking that belief in these messages and having visited the place put them high above all others. Also, Medjugorje is a holy place; however, I don’t necessarily see the need to go there 10-15+ times, let alone how one is able to have the monetary means to go that many times. That money could be used to make one’s parish at home a better place to be at or to buy food for a homeless person down the street. Even so, here’s more food for thought: “But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more…” (Romans 5:20). God can bring good out of even the worst of things.
I try to avoid websites that lean heavily pro or heavily anti as well-this is the internet, after all, and much information on both websites can be false or designed to look true based on how it’s presented. That much may or may not be completely true, but I still don’t trust the internet for the most part when I research anything online, let alone Medjugorje. I am not in any place to say whether or not the Virgin Mary is appearing there, nor am I at liberty to make claims of if the alleged seers are seeing the Mother of God or not. They could all be telling the truth, they could all be lying, or there may be a split between the truth tellers and the liars-I do not know.
It is with the above that I will ultimately not take a side and wait for the Holy Mother Church to make a final proclamation on the site. I will submit myself entirely to her ruling, whether it is approval or condemnation, if it ever occurs in my lifetime. Until that time arrives, if it does, I will stick to my Bible, sacraments, weekly church attendance, prayer, and living my days with a What Would Jesus Do attitude. I won’t endorse or condemn these messages unless the Church says otherwise (they really can’t make a judgement call until the apparitions have ceased anyway), and I suggest that everyone who reads this would do likewise. And put the written Law of God (The Bible) and the sacraments celebrated in the Catholic Church in a place that we can look up to and aspire to be inspired by. If you follow the messages of Medjugorje, have visited the place, and/or have had a wonderful experience from doing such, then I am glad that God was able to reach out to you and fill you with His grace and love. But still, sincerely ask Him for prudence and the gift of discernment to decide what all in this world is or isn’t true.
To all: feel free to agree or disagree with this. I pray everyone has a blessed day.
Thank you for your thoughtful response May. I too will submit to whatever the Church decides; but I do not believe that means I now ought be silent. Our Lady often asks for responses before Church approval comes (just look at Kibeho. She came, told us what to do, and 1 million innocent lives would have been saved if we only listened — Church approval only came after the Rwandan Genocide).
I have tried to imagine say peter and paul going on a pilgrimage to a statue of Mary and it does not seem what they would do
I wonder if you’d be able to imagine our Lord giving His mother to us (John 19:27)
Charles we cam tell them till were blue in the face and they ll still bow down to a statue and say its only a simble I seen how some people I know will acually think the statue is the person they re praying to
Thanks so much, Dan, for sharing your great experience at Medjugorje. My husband and I will be going there next month. We pray for healing in body, mind and spirit.
I stayed with Ivan in Medjugorje. He is an extremely humble, hard working person. When our group arrived he carried my luggage to my room. Twice a day he served our meals- bussing tables and bringing out the food. I have no doubt regarding Mary’s influence.
During an apparation I felt my hands begin to pulsate as if holding a beating heart. Since then I get that sensation on rare times while praying or reading. Nwhile surfing the web I started to glance at the above article…my hand began to pulsate.
I pray that God’s plans are carried out through Mary in Medjugorje. I pray the angels protect Ivan and his family, and the other visionaries.
I BELIEVE. PRAY. LET THE LOVE FLOW. PRAY WITH THE HEART.
MEDJUGORJE September 8 1984
Medjugorje precious place
chosen as fountain of Grace
herald of the Word Divine
strong and healing Warning Sign
You gather us, God’s littlest kids
satan’s temptations Heaven forbids
the toilsome voyage so worth the price
you show us the way back to Paradise
Dearest Mother, Fountain of Peace
prayer and fasting need to increase
as a Mother Your Son thee sent
to prompt us our life to amend
Sweet Mother, I love you so much
I beg You, just let me go Dutch
I’ll defend Your Honor with zeal
You crushing satan with Your heel
I dread the day that You will leave
us poor wailing children of Eve
I beg of You to keep us close
O You Threefold Mystical Rose
The world hates who belongs to God
and treats them as a lightning rod
but the Victory is ours, already won
upon achieving a judgment of ippon
Medjugorje “between two mountains”
you teach us there are no “bargains”
in this life it’s either God or the devil
either God’s Silence or satan’s revel.
Rita Biesemans September 8 1984
Thank you, Daniel, I’ll keep this in mind. God bless.
Not everyone who goes to Medjugorje has a good experience. My aunt came back telling me she thinks it is diabolical. This is a woman who is very devoted to God and has been going to daily Mass for many years. I was shocked, because I always believed and never doubted any apparitions, so I started to read everything I could about it, good and bad.
What bothers me the most is that people who believe, live for the next month’s message, and their next trip to Medjugorje; and not only Medjugorje, but every other current apparition or visionary there is. ( and they are all over the place) And then some of them start getting messages, or write messages, and they share their messages, etc. I’m very afraid for all this. Why are we so interested in these “messages”. Have they taught us anything the Church doesn’t already teach? Christ has already revealed all we need to know for salvation. Why is it so necessary to the “believers” that we all believe in these apparitions? I have talked to people who talk as if those who question it are not saved. I had to leave a prayer group because it has turned into nothing more than a time to talk about visions and messages, and their insistence that we all follow the messages. Do I believe? As of right now, I am on the fence leaning towards, no. I understand what it is like to “wrestle with an angel” because I spent many months in utter despair trying to figure out if it is true, false, or diabolical. And then I figured it out. Why am I despairing about this? Jesus is with me. I can go to my church and receive His Body and Blood. I can open the Bible and read His word. I can pray literally hundreds of prayers, or in the quiet of my heart. I’ve already spoken to Jesus and apologized if I am wrong, but right now, I have stepped away from all this. And finally, my soul rests in Him.
I hear you, Barb; those are legitimate concerns. But do be careful that you do not confuse true discernment with letting irritation at the imperfections of imperfect people get to you; lest we thereby invite non-Catholics see our own imperfections (including the problems in our own approach to Catholic devotions) and detract from Catholicism.
If discerning Medjugorje is tearing you to pieces, then by all means, leave it. Go where your soul finds rest. I would just urge you not to oppose it (even those times when remaining silent is a great mortification). You may find yourself “kicking against the goads.” (cf Acts 9:5)
Homage to Mary from a demon
O Mary, Mary, masterpiece of God’s handiwork: God has made nothing greater than thee! Incomparable creation, admiration of all the heavenly host! All honour thee, all obey thee and acknowledge thee as Mother of the Creator. Thou art raised above the angels and above all the court of Heaven: thou art seated near to God, thou art the Temple of Deity, thou hast carried in thy womb all that is strongest and greatest and most powerful and most loving! …
Mary, thou hast received in thy virginal womb Him who created thee, thou art Virgin and Mother, there is none to be compared with thee. After God, thou art the greatest; thou art the Strong Woman, there is more glory to God in thee than in the heavenly host …
In thee there has been no stain, Anathema be they that deny that thou art Virgin and Mother; thou wast conceived without sin, thou art immaculate! …
I praise thee, O Mary, but all my praises of thee ascend unto God, the author of all good. After the Sacred Heart of Jesus there is no heart to be compared with thine. O loving heart! O tender heart! Thou wilt not abandon even the most thankless or the most guilty of mortals. Thy heart is overflowing with kindness, even to the unfortunate who merit chastisement alone, yet thou obtainest for them grace and compassion: the worst of sinners is converted by thee! …
O, if all the inhabitants of the earth should know thee! If they could understand thy tenderness, thy power, thy goodness, not one of them should perish! All that turn to thee in trust and hope and pray to thee continually, whatever their state may be, thou wilt save them, thou wilt bless them eternally…..
I am compelled to humble myself at thy feet and implore thy pardon for all the outrages I inflict on the one I possess! …
I confess today, one of the most solemn feasts of the whole year, that thy divine Son compels me to say that it is the most solemn of all the feasts.
(The little parish of Ars was to celebrate the feast of the Immaculate Conception. It is relevant to note here that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception had not yet been proclaimed and was not, in fact, promulgated until a year after this homage was recorded. Then an entirely unexpected event occurred. Antoine Gay (the possessed) was found kneeling at the foot of a statue of the Virgin, his arms extended in the form of a cross, and his eyes filled with tears. From his lips there streamed forth this solemn declaration which could only have come from the infernal spirit that possessed him, since Antoine Gay himself had not the theological background to pronounce such an impressive discourse.)
Dear friends who have stumbled upon this page and are currently on the fence about Medjugorje,
See below (john konnor) the primary type of opposition Medjugorje finds: Ultra “traditionalists” who see themselves as so “orthodox” that they oppose teachings of an official, authoritative Council of the Catholic Church (Vatican II); called by the Vicar of Christ, promulgated by the Vicar of Christ, voted on by the Bishops, exalted by Blessed Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, loved by SAINT Josemaria Escriva…. I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Medjugorje’s greatest opponents come from atheists and from schismatic-leaning Catholics who need to employ theological acrobatics to justify their positions.
I am sure John is a great guy, but he has fallen into a very dangerous trap; one I myself, thanks be to God, was only just saved from. I will pray for him and bid you all to do so as well!
In Christ, through Mary,
Daniel
Vatican Council II issued no “solemn judgments.” While Vatican II did repeat prior dogmatic teaching (e.g., on the Eucharist and Sacred Tradition), it did not define any dogmas or condemn any errors. When Pope John XXIII opened the council, he stated that the council would be “pastoral,” unlike the previous councils. This is why Paul VI said that Vatican II did not issue “any extraordinary statements with a note of infallibility.” So Vatican II is not infallible based upon the first type of teaching, “solemn judgment,” set forth in Vatican I’s Dei Filius.
Before moving on, we should note that condemning error is essential for maintaining the Deposit of Faith. Issuing condemnations of error sustains Catholics in their faith and can lead erring souls to repentance. If the Church does not set the parameters of dogma by failing to condemn error, the faithful have latitude to wander into error and imperil their salvation. I believe the failure of the council to condemn error (especially the evils of the time like Communism and materialism) was imprudent to say the least, it not an outright error in judgment. After all, the primary purpose of the previous councils was not to explicate the faith that the faithful already held in tranquility, but to make clear the errors that were threatening the faith and to refute them by declaring the truths that are directly opposed to them.
Now, regarding Dei Filius’ second type of infallible teaching, which comes from the Church’s “ordinary and universal Magisterium.” The Church exercises her ordinary and universal Magisterium only when (1) the teaching is proposed as revealed truth and (2) is in accord with the universality of Catholic Tradition. Vincent of Lerins in his Commonitorium (A.D. 434) sets forth these criteria when he writes, “What all men have at all times and everywhere believed must be regarded as true.” In other words, for a teaching from the ordinary Magisterium to be irreformable (and thus part of the ordinary universal Magisterium), it must be believed “by all, always and everywhere.” If the teaching doesn’t meet these requirements, it comes from the ordinary (but not universal) Magisterium. Such a teaching must still be given “internal religious assent” (obsequium religiosum) unless sufficient study shows objective reasons to propose emendations and corrections to the teaching.
Was Vatican II an exercise of the “ordinary and universal Magisterium”? Only insofar as Vatican II’s teachings are restatements of prior infallible teaching like on the divinity of Christ or the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary. Otherwise, the Second Vatican Council was an exercise of the “ordinary Magisterium” only. And insofar it was an exercise of the ordinary, but not universal, Magisterium, its teachings are not infallible and are subject to reform.
Many argue that Vatican II was an act of the Extraordinary Magisterium and thus could not have taught error. This is incorrect. The level of authority in the Church’s teaching is not determined by its “accidents” (that is, the external form or appearance of the teaching) but by its “substance” (what the teaching essentially is). For example, the ecumenical Council of Florence (1438-1445) issued a doctrinal teaching on the matter of the sacrament of Holy Orders that was approved by Pope Eugene IV, declaring that the matter was the tradition of the instruments (the presentation of the chalice and host). Thus, the council (which is an “extraordinary” form for teaching) issued a teaching that (1) was proposed as revealed truth. But was the teaching (2) in accord with Catholic Tradition? Was it believed “by all, always and everywhere”?
Pope Pius XII said no when he issued his Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis (1947). The pope corrected the teaching of the Council of Florence by declaring that the matter of the sacrament is the imposition of hands, and that the prayer is the Preface of Ordination (and not the words “Receive the power to offer the sacrifice” as the council of Florence taught). Thus, Pope Pius XII corrected a doctrinal teaching of an ecumenical council because the council’s teaching was not an exercise of the ordinary and universal Magisterium and, hence, subject to reform.
On the other hand, the Church can exercise the ordinary and universal Magisterium in many ways outside of papal decrees and ecumenical councils. For example, the pope can propose as revealed truth a teaching that has been believed by all, always and everywhere, in a public speech or radio address (e.g., if the pope reiterated the Church’s condemnation of contraception or her inability to ordain women to the priesthood). Thus, whether a teaching is part of the ordinary and universal Magisterium depends upon whether it is proposed as revealed truth and whether it is a part of Catholic Tradition.
This means that the teachings of the Second Vatican Council must be evaluated in light of the constant Tradition of the Catholic Church. I believe it is difficult to find some of Vatican II’s teachings on ecumenism, inter-religious dialogue, ecclesiology, collegiality, and religious liberty in the Church’s ordinary and universal magisterial teaching, as many erudite scholars have demonstrated (not to mention its directive to completely reform the liturgy which also has no precedent in Tradition). On the other hand, this was the first pastoral council that the Church ever convoked. In short, even if one concludes that some of the council’s teachings are novel, we cannot overreact to these teachings, for they are not protected by Christ’s promise of infallibility. This is the problem with the sedevacantists. They cannot accept that an ecumenical council like Vatican II could teach error on matters of the faith. But an ecumenical council can teach error if that teaching is not part of the ordinary and universal Magisterium
…that is why Paul VI said that Vatican II did not issue “any extraordinary statements with a note of infallibility.” Vatican II’s statements on Catholic dogma are infallible because they reaffirm the infallible dogma already defined by previous councils (such as its statements on the Eucharistic sacrifice). They are not infallible because they were issued by the council per se, since the council was not dogmatic. As I said before, Vatican II’s pastoral directives (such as its directives on liturgical reform, ecumenism, etc.) and its teachings on religious liberty and ecclesiology are not infallible
….when you read through the 16 documents of Vatican II, you discover that no doctrines were actually defined by the Council (which is precisely what Pope John XXIII told us would be the case in his opening address).
the council as it stands is open to reform under the aspect of the universal magisterium… it is only authoritative on its pronoucements which are in accord with previous doctrines evinced by the universal magisterium which indeed would be binding upon the faithful as infallible and subject to obedience… have a good day
Consequently, it cannot be maintained that there is an infallible teaching here, for as the Code of Canon Law states: “No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident” (CIC 749 §3).
The Ordinary Magisterium versus the Universal Magisterium
The terminology used for these two expressions of the teaching authority of the Church is confusing. The Ordinary Magisterium is non-infallible and its teachings may contain errors, but not to such an extent as to lead the faithful away from the path of salvation. It is called ordinary because it is the usual and most common way that the Church teaches the Faith.
The Universal Magisterium is also called the Ordinary Universal Magisterium, or the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The Universal Magisterium is infallible and all that it asserts as true is certainly true. These assertions have the charism of certain truth because they have been asserted by the Universal Magisterium. They are not merely grouped under the Universal Magisterium because they are certainly true. Therefore, the faithful can be certain that they are true by knowing if they fall under the Universal Magisterium. We do not first determine if a teaching is certainly true, and then place it under the Universal Magisterium.
The Universal Magisterium is called ordinary, even though its teaching is infallible and ordinary teachings are non-infallible, because the teachings of the Universal Magisterium are first taught non-infallibly under the Ordinary Magisterium. As a teaching is taught in many places, at various times, by various Bishops and by the Pope (or by successive Popes), it tends to develop and change. The teaching grows in depth and breadth. Its intrinsic connection to the other teachings of the Church is explored further. The teaching is pruned of incorrect or inaccurate ideas. The teaching is taught more definitively because it is better understood and because it has been purified of incorrect ideas. Disagreements about the correct form of the doctrine and its full extent are ironed out. Then, over the course of time, when the Pope (or successive Popes) and the Bishops, “authentically teaching matters of faith and morals … are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held” the teaching then moves from the non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium to the infallible Universal Magisterium (quotation from Lumen Gentium, n. 25).
i haven’t stooped to the level of branding anyone a heretic here… i am just am trying to reconcile certain difficulties i have with some of the statements of the seers… i am in no means obligated to accept any private revelations since all revelation necessary for salvation ended with the last apostle… i do and will always glady bow my will to that of the church if i have made any poor judgements i sincerely apologize… thank you for the opportunity to post… have a good day
I am familiar with Vatican 2…. Ans as a purely pastorl council it does not reveal any new doctrine which might bind the faithful…to wit
Pope Paul VI made it clear in a public audience of January 12th, 1966 that the decrees of Vatican II were never stamped with the note of infallibility as he openly declared:
“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.” (General Audience, December 1, 1966, published in the L’Osservatore Romano 1/21/1966)
Catholics are, therefore, within their rights to make reservations regarding any novelties emanating from Vatican II that are out of step with Sacred Tradition and the previous (continuous) Magisterium of the Church.
So your true colors are revealed; you are yourself in heresy, hence your urge to accuse others of it. Vatican II is authoritative via the Ordinary Magisterium.
“God presides over all religions as a king controls his subjects, through his priests and ministers.”
heresy-God does not preside over all religions he allows people to establish their own religions by the dictates of their own reason, thereby simply tolerating other religions… the reason may be clouded owing to their poor judgement which is a result of sin and so this error in judgement is a result of a privation of the soul’s brightness in relation to its cause… the soul lacks the wisdom and grace which God would bestow on it had it responded to God’s call to convert to the one true faith…. God presides over the Church which he established through the apostles (the catholic church)
“The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God, and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well. You do not really believe in God if you make fun of other religions.”
heresy- from this are we to ascertain that God wants us to respect the church of satan or voodoo or tantric hinduism in which the practitioners engage in necrophilia …. such souls would be in a state of grievous sin… God does not contradict himself…. are we to respect sin? … this is contrary to the message of the gospel wherein we are exhorted to detest sin…
“All religions are similar before God. God rules over them just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them.”
heresy-all religions are not similar…. the only religion that is of supernatural origin is the catholic church that began at pentacost!…. all other religions are man made
Aug. 2, 1981: That evening during the apparition, those present followed one another in order to touch “the veil, the head, the hand, the dress” of the apparition. “At the end the Virgin seemed dirty, full of stains.” (Bubalo, p.73-74)
heresy-The soul is not defiled by inferior things, by their own power, as though they acted on the soul: on the contrary, the soul, by its own action, defiles itself, through cleaving to them inordinately, against the light of reason and of the Divine law.-thomas aquinas summa theologica….. since Mary is in heaven with a glorified body anything earthly could not defile her in any way… since she is glorified and impassable in heaven….. her nature is eternally configured it cannot be changed since she is one with God in heaven… anything attached to God cannot be altered in any way… God is immutable and so the things of heaven are since they are like him… this is also an apparition it is hard to believe that it has any temporal character namely that it is made of solid matter that can be touched,,,
I agree with what John said – all other religions are false and idolatrous.
John – do you accept Vatican II?
If so, please read its Dogmatic Constitutions (especially Gaudium et Spes) – you will see that all of your arguments are refuted by these Magisterial, infallible documents. Pope Benedict has established this Year of Faith with its foundation being the 16 documents of that council, and it would behoove you to read them.
If not, then you are the heretic here- not the medjogorje supporters.
Daniel – do the visions contradict God’s word in the bible.
I would hope it’d be obvious to you that I am of the belief that they do not :-). As much as I welcome comments of any opinion on this article of mine, Charles, this is becoming a mere tedious and excessive exchange of tidbits that is far too superfluous to post for the world to see, so feel free to email me if you’d like to continue along such lines, but otherwise I’ll only be approving future comments from you that are substantial and worthy of being published. Thank you, though, for your time and your concern – truly – and know that you are in my prayers. God Bless.
Daniel – so would you say that the visions have never proffered a syncretistic approach to worship.
Sorry for the delay. Yes I would say that – they certainly do not go beyond or in any way violate what the Magisterium authoritatively teaches (i.e. the documents of Vatican II)
Daniel – Paul says we should test what the spirits say to scripture – so any revelation or prophecy should be tested to see if it agrees with scripture. Syncretism in any form would not agree with scripture.
Yes, I agree on both accounts
“A search of a concordance of Medjugorje messages from 1984 to 2009 reveals that words such as abortion, contraception, pornography and homosexuality are missing. The same is true of adultery, divorce, and fornication. Likewise drugs, murder, lying, lust, and impurity don’t get a mention, nor stealing, theft, idolatry, wrath, despair or greed. One exception is “pride” but that refers to the sin of Satan, and not to a human sin.”
Donal Anthony Foley, Medjugorje Revisited
Nor does Our Lady speak of these things in Sacred Scripture. Woe to those subjects who think themselves worthy to tell the Queen of the Universe what to say.
Daniel – but sacred scripture speaks and warns of all these things – so do some in the catholic church warn against these sins.
So if the vision is Mary warning Christians surely some reference could be made of these things – after all the apostles warned of these things.
I bid you use valid criteria in discerning the validity of an alleged revelation (the Vatican just published its norms used for this purpose) – presenting a list of things that Our Lady “could” have spoken of, but in her wisdom (which far exceeds ours) chose not to, does not comprise a valid criteria.
The girl was saying that Paul and his companions were leading the hearers to the one true God. So surely this would
edify the hearers in that the gospel of Jesus was the only way.
I don’t see how that itself can be called edifying.
When a baby Christian comes upon this passage we wonder why Paul silenced her when she appeared to be ‘edifying’
the hearers but in actual fact she had a demonic spirit.
She wasn’t edifying anyone.
In Paul’s example we can say even though the girl was stating the truth it was not from God.
Hmm… I don’t think the mere recognition of God (which all men and angels are by nature required to do) in words is comparable to 31 years of edifying messages expounding upon God’s Truth.
If we say the Bishops who did not accept the authenticity of the visions can substitute for Paul , or Peter for that matter
when he refused Simon the sorcerer , then these false apparitions were discovered quickly. But the disobedience of those involved allowed the continuation for 30 years.
I’m not sure if you read the article you are commenting on, but in case you did not, here is the paragraph from it that addresses your concern: “1. “The local Bishop opposes it”- Perhaps Mary intends to teach us an important lesson here; that the Holy See supersedes our local Bishops. It is an important lesson to learn. Not realizing that lesson, many Catholics are fooled into thinking contraception is OK, women will soon be priests, homosexual acts are not sinful, etc. The Vatican has specifically taken the matter out of his (Bishop Ratko’s) hands, so those demanding that others submit to his opinion on the matter are committing the very act they are attempting to condemn: refusing to submit to valid Church authority.”
This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
It did not take Paul very long to detect that this girl was possessed. Now after 30 years Mejugorje has a momentum of its own.
Do you mean that if Medjugorje were demonic, this would have been more evident decades ago?
God bless!
Dan
Your comments presuppose that only those baptized in the Catholic faith are eligible to experience the miracles of God, ergo is a judgment, and as instructed by the Lord is a sin. I would caution you to read beyond the political confines of Vatican II into the “holy” and “corrupt” lives of those who have led the Catholic Church into the 20th Century, many who were and still are practicing sodomites. Even Pope John Paul II told us that Jesus Christ embraces all religions.
I too visited Medujugorie in 1989, and experienced little spirit in the communication from the youth, then in their early 20s, who reported visionary insights, nor along the traditional sight where the Blessed Virgin is reported to have appeared to them. However, there was a violent storm during Mass at St. James, and the Blessed Virgin was very much present for me, as well as the Holy Spirit.
Your writing has the effect of cannon legalism, and as we know the Lord Jesus Christ condemned lawyers as dealing in deceitful tactics that used the populace for personal gain. It does not take much intellegence to understand that the Catholic Magisterium uses philosophical tenets that are based on categorical mental precepts, void of spiritual power, that frighten people into political submission. Emanuel Kant was hardly a devout Christian, nor is any man born of woman infallible. However those who over indulge in the fruit of the vine, which is a majority of catholics, tend towards arrogancy, and as such are hardly in a position to instruct any one in the ways of spiritual holiness. The consumption of wine, which contains alcohol content, when used too frequently or in too large a quanity effects the consiounsness of those partaking in a negative manner, which incites lusts, and a form of mental sadism. The prophet Isaiah, one of the greatest martyrs of the Christain world, wrote profusely on the evil of alcohol consumption, and the Lord’s disdain for such practices, which inevitably entails spiritual exegesis that comes from within the personal consciounsness of the priest or alleged prophet and is void of God’s spiritual intention.
When any man proclaiming to have superior knowledge or spiritual insight into the logos, into divine revelation, into miracles,and fails to demonstrate personal humility, and charity in their lives, it is time to get up and exit the conversation, as that individual is failing God’s litmus test for genuine devotion to God’s foremost Holy Commanmdents. When the catholic church, of which I am a member of the mystical laity, has gone for 1700 years free of pedophilia, alcoholism drug addiction, sodomy, love of money, spiritual arrogance, then perhaps the future “Catholic Church” may be in a position to speak with authority on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Until then, it behooves those who are genuine Catholics to chastise those who are following false propets, false doctrines, instead of the Son of God. Pray peace to your soul!
Which of my comments presuppose that?
This was a strange comment, my anonymous friend. I think you have much personal examination to undertake, and pray you will have the courage to do so. Praying for you.
In Christ, Through Mary,
Daniel
Satan does neat parlor tricks and why should he care if a few souls may authentically convert because then he has his army infilterating the camps under the guise of holiness….trick a few to destroy the many.
“If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand?” – The Son of God. Luke 11:18. Yes, anonymous, Satan can intercede as well. But do not be quick to attribute good fruits to his power; that is the mindset that caused the Pharisees to kill our Lord.
Ave Maria Gratia Plena
Thanks a million for the wstbiee. I’ve followed ur site since it started and always looking forward ro the messages from Our Lady.Heard about the visionaries back in 1988 when someone came back from Medugoryeand spread the news.The message brought back was,pray and fast on bread and water and prayers will be answered.My prayers were answered 2 months later. I conceived sfter trying 5 years to have another baby.Keep up the good work,Father and I pray that God’s blessings be forever on u.
Thank you Father Finelli for your beautiful btiswee. It is very inspiring and I check it often. In 2001 when I was planning a trip to Medjugorje with my sister and my daughter I was blessed to find your page as I didn’t know where to start looking for a place to stay while in Medjugorje or a group to go with and you directed me to Ivanka and Kreso. Ivanka put us in contact with Kathy, a lady in the midwest who had planned a pilgrimage around the same time. Everything came out great; now I am anxious to go back, God willing, next year (ten years later). Blessings to you Father.
Hi Daniel,
Like your stance.
Most of it.
Thank you for this site and your testimony. Both are awesome! Also, thank you for your uncompromising orthodoxy. Deo gratias!
I am glad you specified that you no longer promote Medjugorje, but not that you disbelieve. I do not know enough about the disobedience issue to comment on it much directly; all I can say is that indeed even visionaries are human and have their shortcomings, but if the evidence leads to the validity of the apparition, let us be sure not to deny it.
God Bless
Dan
Thank you Padre, for your service to Our Lady and her ioenntitns! You are an inspiration to me and many others. I’m so glad to have met you on the Internet. May the Lord continue to bless your ministry and may Our Blessed Mother Mary keep you close to her Immaculate Heart!Deacon John Giglio
I am have been to Medjugorje. It was a marvelous experience and I did experience phenomena.
BUT I no longer promote Medjugorje and it was the disobedience of the visionaries that have given way to this change of heart. I am not speaking of the revealing of secrets but when the Ordinary of a diocese goes to the pulpit of the Church and asks the visionaries and other personally to be quiet while investigations are ongoing and they disobey and detract and calumniate him–that is when I stopped thinking that Our Lady was behind it. She would never ever ever allow this disobedience to a bishop and never speak of it or correct the so-called visionaries.
Other saints such as Padre Pio, even when unjustly silenced, were obedient. These visionaries are not. When the Divine Mercy devotion was under investigation and silence was imposed, there was obedience given and it took 30 years or so but then it exploded all over the world.
Disobedience is a huge red flag.
It seems to me that the great miracle, as promised by Our Lady in Medjugorje, wouldn’t be necessary if everyone believed in her apparitions. So, in a strange way those who are voicing opposition are giving credence to this promise. In 1986, The Vatican took away the local bishop’s authority to reject Medjugorje. Pope John Paul had very favorable remarks regarding Medjugorje. Here’s one link:
http://www.medjugorje.org/pope.htm
You can “google” more on John Pauls’s remarks.
Thank you for a well-reasoned and honest description of and defense of Medjugorge. I have been, mildly, on the “anti” side but am re-thinking the issue after reading this. God bless!
I see where you find the similarity; but what I saw is different in the following ways:
All those pictures involve the sun near the horizon, while the sun dogs themselves appear more like patches of sun than patches of rainbow, and appear to be fit into a ring shape. What I saw, on the other hand, was two very clear patches of rainbow- the sun was not near the horizon, nor were these patches jammed into a ring shape.
Hi Dan,
Seeing small patches of rainbow on either side of the Sun sounds a lot like the atmospheric phenomenon known as “sun dogs”. Could you take a quick look at the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dogs and let us know if that’s what you saw before you went to Medjugorje or was it quite different? Thanks.
Citing that the visionaries are in disobedience because they will not reveal the secrets to the Bishop is erroneous. One has only to look at the apparitions to Bernadette Soubirous in Lourdes, France. Bernadette too was given secrets by Our Lady. They were secrets, however, which she took to the grave. When asked once if she would reveal her secret to the Pope, Bernadette responded, “The Lady told me to reveal the secret to no person. The Pope is a person.”
For those who doubt the authenticity of Medjugorje just look at this video titled Colleen Willard’s Međugorje Miracle Testimonial. See it here: http://en.gloria.tv/?media=39412
But I too join you in prayer that more clarity will come quickly
She was responsible for much division at her other approved apparitions
This is a ball of confusion, so many divisions. Would our lovely Lady be responsible for all this confusion? It does not seem possible. I am eagerly waiting for the answer on this one. The Father of all lies is laughing it up, God help us and send us an Angel of Peace quickly, I pray for this daily. This phenomena has families, clergy and people of all of walks of life divided…..how can it be Heaven’s sent?? I pray my Lord and Mother of all to please put a stop to this madness soon, if it is your will my Lord, not mine.
Theresa- forgive me if this is nitpicky, but I don’t think it is. I think you demonstrate an error in your thinking when you refer to people being “over-zealously religious”
That is impossible. Zeal is a virtue, and like all virtue, God desires that we have it in abundance. We cannot be too virtuous.
If you base your denouncing of Medjugorje based on the bad fruits you have observed- what have you to say of the absolute excess of good fruits that have as a matter of fact proceeded from Medjugorje?
I also wonder… who on earth would suffer illness from fasting on bread and water two days a week? It’s not that demanding. Man up!
Your love for Medugorje is a calling from your Mother – after my first visit in 2004 I felt that little village to be somewhere between heaven and earth. I call it my second home. Subsequent visits were, for me, like going home. As a member of a Pentecostal Bible believing church and a cradle Catholic(“fallen away” to you. “praying for one Body, the unity of all Christians” to me.) I am not personally bound by any “restrictions” in my involvement in Medjugorje. I am sad for those Catholics who close their eyes and ears to Medjugorje. For 30 years God has gratiously sent her to us as a gift. What are we waiting for?
If you immerse yourself in that place it will be very difficult to come away completely unaffected and unconvinced, just because of the way our minds are built. It certainly is a powerful set-up. Let me just say that if the only bad fruit of Medjugorje were disobedience, which is at the root of the whole set-up, that would be enough to make its nature clear. IMO the worst fruit is the destruction of commonsense. But for myself and people known to me, consequences have included the following: one person psychotic, possibly possessed, three involved in pedophilia (parents so blinded by their ‘all is beautiful attitude’ they didn’t see what was happening), a broken marriage, death threats, a possible murder, rape, a false vocation and subsequent leaving the priesthood after years of guilt and depression, a loyal priest made miserable and scorned for not liking Medjugorje, friends who joined a cult-like group, illness from over-fasting, lost friendships and in my case, years of potentially fulfilling life put aside to serve this obsession. And that’s just from people I know in one small place, a set of slightly over-zealously religious but otherwise very ordinary folk, plus only a couple of friends from further away!! (Granted in a small place you do get to know the insides of people’s lives that you’d never suspect otherwise).
Mr. Connor,
I think that Mrs. Vassula is no longer a member of the Greek Orthodox Church.
On the other hand, also worth noting (and I really know nothing about that alleged apparition) is that Vassula’s church is apparantly the Greek Orthodox Church. I do not think the Holy Spirit gaurantee’s that Churches infallibility.
Mr. Connor,
I was just giving you two examples of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church to let you know that these things happen. Deceptions had happened before, and will happen again and we are not sure of them unti the deceptions have unmasked their true intentions.
As per Medjugorje, I don’t know, but all I can see is that the good people of faith are having a hard time reconciling with each other on the issue of the alleged apparitons and everything surrounding it.
The other issue is that the alleged apparition to Vassula Ryden has been condenmed by the Catholic Church.
The alleged vision tells Vassula that Satan has helped in the condemnation of the apparition by throwing dust in eyes of the Ecclesiastical authorities and seeds in their hearts so they condemn the apparitions.
Has the alleged apparition to Vassula forgotten the promise of Jesus Christ that the Holy Spirit would always guide the Church?
How easy it is for the apparition to Vassula to just say that the only way that it could be approved has been tainted by the devil.
That the Church can not be trusted because Satan has inflicted dust in their eyes and seeds in their hearts so all should not listen to the Church for truth???? OH, so now Satan has power over the Holy Spirit???? No way!
Who is that from, Victor?
Victor,
The Real Mother of Christ, our Virgin Mother and Mother of the Church, would NEVER
say anything bad about anyone even less about a person who wears the habit and is a representative of Her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ here on earth. She is free from all sin and the apparition or visions above is clearly commiting the sin of detraction and Mary would never ever be able to do that.
Beware of false prophets who give you another gospel that is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Rv 12:1-17
The vision of the woman and the dragon
come, I will explain; when Satan lost, he swore to pursue the rest of My children and make war to them; he swore to devour them in his raging fury because he knows that his days are numbered and because of this, he wants to drag with him as many souls as he could; yes, he is the dragon and with his tail he tries to sweep along God’s creation into destruction; Vassula, My child, as he is Vanity itself, he accuses the Almighty’s works, wanting to prove to God that He has failed His creation and that Our children are made to follow his evil ways;
Vassula, I will tell you something, something that all those who love Me will rejoice; this year will be for My glory; no, you do not quite understand; My Immaculate Heart will prevail; I shall draw many souls back to Jesus;
(St. Mary drew my attention to Her appearances.)
like I have appeared at Lourdes and at Fatima, I have likewise appeared at Garabandal, giving a similar Message; Garabandal is the sequel of Fatima’s Message, but once again Satan has thrown dust in the eyes of the ecclesiastical authorities to confuse them; he has sown his seeds in their heart4 so that they deny My apparitions and prevent My Message from becoming universal; Vassula, Our Hearts are bleeding, wounded by thorns which have been driven into Them; how I weep on you, children; I love you, Vassula; My wounded Heart lacerates to see you being swept by the dragon’s tail!
Read Jonah
March 8, 1989
Lord?
I am; I have guided you to read Jonah because I want you and My children to understand that I can always relent the Punishment I have in store for your evil generation; I do not wish My Cup of Justice to brim over as It does now and so I tell you: repent, fast and be holy!
Lord,
I am;
Lord, some are fasting, repenting and trying. Is it enough? Are we not on the right road?
(I had the impression that we are slightly better these few years and on the right road.)
My Vassula, many are on the road to perdition, because of the evil that has accumulated in them; they are like night in their insides; so how can you say that this generation is on the right road ?
What can we do to let everyone know that we are at the brink of a disaster? Some have no idea!
so long as My Spirit is crushed, and so long as My Own muffle My Warnings, suppressing My Spirit, treating the prophecies with contempt, and taking almost a delight to announce that the apparitions of Our Presence are untrue, I will not bear it any longer; My Justice will prevail … today still, I am coming to you as a most Merciful Friend, but tomorrow I shall descend to you as a severe Judge; My Spirit they suppress, they ridicule My Blessings; these are the Cains of today;
I love you all to folly, remember always this; I will relent My Justice only when tremendous reparations will be done,
Love loves you; here is Saint Michael:
child of God, nothing is impossible to God;
http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/389/
Mr. Connor,
The amount of people supporting an alleged apparition will not make it authentic.
I believe there have been bigger deceptions in the past througout the history of the Church. Perhaps the biggest is the protestant revolt where Cardinals, Bishops, priests and lay people were deceived and left the Catholic Church. Perhaps the other biggest deception was the breakup of the East and West Churches. These two, I think, have been the most lasting wounds that the Catholic Church still has. Just like Jesus had wounds in His Body, the Body of Christ the Church also has wounds.
The Good angels are the messengers of God and most of the times are the ones who perform phenomenoms under the command of the Heavenly Father for our spiritual health. But, with God’s command the phenomenom brings a lasting effect bringing with it a miracle.
The angels (fallen or good) can manipulate everything in nature and the sun is a thing of nature. Making the sun dance is a hard thing to authenticate ,but to have dried the clothes and the soil in a second, that is the true miracle which happened at Fatima.
Many people who see the sun dance in Medjugorje compare it to Fatima’s miracle and this is why I said it is not the same.
Thank God for holy convesions for there is a God and He will not leave us orphans.
God knows our souls and He is ready to enter it, if we open our souls to Him. He will not abandon us if we are truly sincere in our search for Him. I believe in true conversions of the heart and these could happen anywhere anytime and to anyone and it could happen in Medjugorje too because God is everywhere and being in Medjougrje does not stop Him from entering into someone’s heart.
In visions and apparitions we are to test the spirits, and take what is good and leave what is not.
As to your comparisons; no one is leaving the Catholic Church due to Medjugorje, unlike the Protestant revolt and Great Schism.
Mr. Oconnor,
Just a little while ago our parish clean out all Medjugojre items such as brochus and advetisemnet, we have a lot of folks going there yearly and all of a sudden it seem that Medjugojre had fallen off a cliff, I was praying to The Virgin Mary in front of the Blessed Sacrement, if it is truly You my dearest Mother let me have a change to go and if not let me have the wisdom to understand.
This is what I given the wisdom to understand, you may not like it, but please humble yourselve and listen to the truth, it is in the Holy Scripture and The Word of our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ ” No one goes to the Father, except through Me” This is Christ very own word of comfirmation that we are off the hook of the division of any religion of any format or parts and there is only one true way and no other way except through Christ Jesus, is the Gospa the Mother of God? why is She going agaisnt Her Beloved Son teaching? the muslim case and we are the one down below cause all the division?, the is a false teaching, Mr. Oconnor, however way you would like to twist and turn your way out of this one message, it is false and agianst Christ teaching and any teaching agaisnt Christ is an antichrist.
Obedience is of Jesus as He is the most obedience until death, it is Christ who taught us to be obedience, it will be very unlike Christ and esp. His dearest Mother to be disobedience to His own overseer (Bishop) and by the way Vatican do not overight the local Bishop, the right of way is the local Bishop, in many case of a true apparition the local Bishop would have the seal of approval, in this case the local Bishop rejected, Vatican is there to farther prove that there is trouble in Medjugojre, just like what happen in my parish all things of Medjugojre is gone, yes I feel sorry for all those folks, we used to have the monthly message read at our prayer meeting, I only have this to say to all those folks who still hang on to Medjugojre, we unbeliever of so-called Gospa are not agaisnt the Mother of God, The Holy and Immaculate Virgin Mary, we love Her as much as anyone could, if not more, we have a group of devotee that offer our Saturday for Her Cause, so don’t be too fast to tell us we do not honor Her, what we do not believe is that it is The True Mother of God appearing to those so called seer and many publish about how the Holy Pope said about Mudjugojre and good thing and is completely false, firstly the Holy Father would never review his opinion on a on going apparition site and Catholic News agnecy report the Holy Father comment as he is questioning the some thirty thousand message received to date and wondering as could this be from the Mother of God?, there was only six visit and three secerts in Fatima over a period of few months and Medjugojre have twenty-eight years and some thirty thousand message and over fifty to sixty secerts this is just over the top, my view is Medjugojre had a humble begining, but later on being corrupted and a word of advised to all, as humble as the claim seer want everyone to believe they are seeing the Mother of God be caution because humility can be falsified, but obedience can never be falsified, it can only be of God.
May God guide you and May the Saints and Angel lead you Amen
Very well said
God Bless you Daniel in addressing Mrs. R comments. When I visited Medjugorje in 1988, I witnessed the Miracle of the Sun which appeared as a pulsating host. God had answered my prayers….I wanted to know if He actually existed. Only GOD can manipulate the sun. I was able to see the pusalting sun for 25 minutes without my retinas being burned. Because of my experience in Medjugorje, I pray my rosary every day, attend Mass almost every day, LOVE Jesus and Mary, and try to live a holy life. I wonder how the devil is feeling about my conversion.
I truly believe that God is sending his Mother to Medjugorje. He can do anything He desires. Why not send His Mother to earth at this time? Our world is in need of belief in a loving God. I was like St. Thomas; I needed a sign to believe. God gave me three signs….Miracle of the Sun, smell of roses, and rosary beads turning golden. He used these things for me to believe in Him because He knew He was going to get my devotion. I will always be grateful to Medjugorje because Our Lady led me to Her Son.
Because of Medjugorje countless of people have strengthen their Catholic faith or have become Catholic. Several men who I know have become priests….Father Donald Calloway, Father Lightner, Father Rick Wendell. They are on FIRE for the Eucharist and in love with Our Lady. They have said only wonderful things about Medjugorje.
Blessings, Victoria
“Way out of hand” would be an enormous understatement if Medjugorje is false; 50,000,000 people have made a pilgrimage there. It would be the greatest deception known to Catholicism if that were so.
Why does the miracle of the sun have to occur in exactly the same way as it did in Fatima for it to be valid?
I think the biggest deception in the catholic church must have been st magdalena who fooled the whole of spain for most
of her life including the most dicerning religious.
Sounds like its false unfortunate people look for God in wrong places to bad people have to look for signs if the cam realize that God is close to them all they have to do is pray that simple
The Medjugorje message is “pray, pray, pray.” It is a shame you find in that something to oppose.
It’s a shame Danny u have to travel that far to hear you have to pray think you should know that
Sent from my HTC
Christians have always been a people of pilgrimage
In there koran they know about our lord no excuses read some of it they hate christians bcs we say our lord is God’s son they do have to be with us to be saved
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Mr. Connor,
The whole Medjugorje phenomenom is way out of hand. I believe this is why the Vatican has formed an international commission to deal with it. We await the results.
I have read Lucia Dos Santos books and others regarding the many letters and notes and even interviews from some of those 70,000 people who were there on the day the Sun Danced in Fatima and the rain which made puddles and wet the people’s clothes was dried instantly by the sun as it seemed to plummetted the earth.
I believe that what is happening in Medjuogjre/ and other places with the sun is not a miracle perse because nothing happens after it, no clothes are dried up after a heavy rain, no after miracle, and also it is repeated and repeated to many times for it to be something lasting.
I have read the descriptions of the Miracle at Fatima from people who watched the sun danced at Fatima and the things they say are totally different from what the things Medjugorje people are experiencing. I don’t think the sun dancing in Medjugorje is the same as the Miracle of the Sun that happened in Fatima.
Plus, the miracle was prophecied by Mary to the three children. She promiised them a sign, a miracle and it happened. This has not happened, as far as I know, at Medjugorje. The miracle of the sun at Fatima was not the same thing that Lucia saw that day. She had multiple visions that day of the kind that lasts forever and which had deep meaning in our faith.
That Vatican could certainly tell people to stop doing many things that it expressly allows in Medjugorje.
Some of your other criticisms would seem to apply equally well to those 70,000 souls who gathered in Fatima and saw the great miracle of the sun.
The Vatican can not stop people from going to a place of worship and that will be the parish of St. James and its surroundings. It would be unprecedent for the Catholic Church to tell the faithful to stop going to a parish Church anywhere in the world if the Church is in union with the Holy See.
The Vatican can not tell people to stop going to places to pray or to go on pilgrimage and for this reason people are able to go to Medjugorje. However, these people who
go to Medjugorje in pilgrimage are to keep a healthy devotion to the Virgin Mary according to what the Church has already taught and approved.
But the alleged apparitions and messages of the “Gospa of Medjugorje” have not been approved and they have not been accepted as true devotions by the Church. Therefore it is important for people to stick with Church approved devotions for now because only those would be under the “healthy devotions” which we are required,
or asked to follow.
This, however is not what is happening in Medjugorje, because people are going there looking for the alleged apparition, praying to it, asking it questions, looking for the seers, buying cards and statues of it, spreading it all over the world, and especially looking for phenomenom such as rosaries turning into gold, statues wipping, things in the sun, the moon and the sky, smell of roses, and all things that are to engage our senses into believing whatever it is happening there. If people were cautious they would find that even these so called “mireacles” can be performed by demons and this is why we should not believe everything we see, hear, smell, or think etc.
Connor, which saint’s life do you want me to read? Perhaps I have not read the one you are thinking about.
Jesus?
I am; have My Peace; it is I, the Lord, do not fear; 1
O Lord, what can I do more?
(I want to satisfy God.)
worship Me! Love Me! My Holy Cross at Medjugorje is alive and in flames; I have blessed this territory giving My Graces through My Mother who is the Ark of Alliance of My Divine Works; 2
(God has been giving me for the past days a vision of an immense Cross on a mountain. This Cross was in flames, but not as if it was on fire and was burning; no, the fire was from within it, shaped as a Cross. A luminous non-consuming fire.)
hear Me; in just a short while I will make the unbelievers knee bend on that very mountain; My Holy Cross is alive with a living Flame; 3
(I asked the Lord what does this fire represents here and He told me: “LIFE”.)
http://www.tlig.org/en/messages/279/
The Vatican expressly allows pilgrims to go to Medjugorje; the ban is on these pilgrimages being arranged BY a parish/diocese (this is a very wise judgement as that would appear as an endorsement).
The Bishop of Mostar cannot ban that which the Vatican allows.
You are right that he was talking about division among thsoe who believe in Him and those who don’t. Do you think the Church is invincible to that type of division? I bid you read more lives of the saints! I believe Medjugorje’s time to create great unity within the One True Church will soon come.
Mr. Connor,
If the Bishops in Canada err, and we do not know that they are erring in accepting contraception, we are not at fault. They carry the load of their sins, we don’t.
But, if we know that they are erring, we do not follow it. We are not guilty of being obedient to our superiors, but if our superiors are erring and we know it, then we stop doing what it is obious error.
But, this does not seemed to be the same case with Medjuogorje because the entire Church has held the same stance on it. Vatican has stayed by the same stance of non constat de supernaturalite, no public or private pilgrimages on the grounds that this alleged apparition is authentic, and only a healthy devotion to Mary which has a Church approval can be expressed there.
Therefore, the Bishop of Mostar is still the ordinary of the place and according to Lumen Gentium and other Vatican documents, he holds the right to speak and declare his opinion as ordinary of the place anything regarding the alleged apparitions of Medjuogje.
I hope you don’t misinterpret what Jesus said regarding Him being a Sword and the division it would create among members of a family and in the world. He was speaking on division between those who would believe in Him and those who won’t.
Division between those who would accept Him as their Savior and those who won’t.
Division between those who would die fighting for Him, and those who would fight against Him. This is the division that Jesus talked about. The division that I am talking about is within its own Body, among those who believe in HIm, between those who have accepted HIm as their Savior. Christ did not come to destroy HIS own BODY, He came to build HIs Body and for this He sent the HOly SPirit Who is the UNITER of CHrist Body.
Yes, there has been plenty of division in different apparitions and those who were approved have actually united the BODY of Christ more but those who were found lacking and unapproved, have sowed division in the CHurch.
The Vatican is the headquaters of the universal Church and is actually made up of many different arms and one of them is the Bishops in which Bishop Peric is a member of. He is part of the Vatican and in his Diocese he is a small sized vatican and arm of the main Vatican in which he is the head.
What does Judas have to do with anything in these conversations?
All I am saying is the Vatican supercedes
Sounds like one horrid woman,mrs r, but shall we abandon Christ due to Judas?
I read the article and i believe strongly in the contents. Once comment about divorce affects me since my wife after 6 months of marriage and pregnant kicked me out of our home and her concerns are $ and has stopped communicating with me. Say a prayer for our marriage to return and serve our Lord. Amen
Mrs. R, if you lived in Canada, would you go to your Bishop’s for matters on morals? If so (if you went to them instead of the Vatican) you would be contracepting your way right into hell.
As for the Bishop’s request, no one is acting as if the apparitions are “authentic AND approved”
I do not see the basis for demanding that the Holy Spirit ONLY unifies in temporal affairs. Did not the second Person of the Holy Trinity say he came as a sword that divides? Was there not plenty of division apparant in previous approved apparitions, before they were approved?
“…would you go to your Bishop’s for matters on morals? If so (if you went to them instead of the Vatican) you would be contracepting your way right into hell.”
Are you saying that all Bishop’s are evil and that we must disobey them if we are to be saved? That certainly sounds like a diabolical comment and sewing the seed of disobedience and discord.
Just as all the Medj. followers that have crossed my path have turned out to be like, when you get down to the nitty gritty of it.
One local woman, a Medj. follower and ex-protestant, converted to Catholicism then proceeded to set herself up as a leader of the RCIA; turned the parish against the local priest because she didn’t like his ‘manner’, got people to complain about him to the local Bishop, and got him kicked out as the parish priest. He refused to relinquish his position as he had not done anything wrong – so now the parish is in complete limbo with temporary priests acting as ‘parish administrators’. The so-called Medj. convert did nothing but sew discord and contempt for the priest and his supporters, spread slander about the priests (which is a sacrilege) that followed him, and complained about the way the RCIA program was run by the priests in the parish for years afterwards. She also had no respect for the sacraments of confession as she knocked on the door of the confessional while others were inside because she wanted to speak with the priest, and put herself up on the altar to distribute Communion after getting rid of the priest – which is the most contemptible act of pride that I’ve witnessed. But superficially, she looked like a good Catholic who did a lot of service within the parish.
If I need to clarify anything regarding faith and morals in the USA, I go directly to my Archdiosesan website if not to the USBishop’s Conference website and read it and believe in it and trust in it because the Holy Spirit guides the representants of CHrist on earth, the priests, the Bishops and Archbishops. Even if I am at odds with them, they are the authority of the Church. Well, why is it that those who are so sure of what they believe is true do not go directly to the authority who is in charge of the “Medjugorje Phenomenom”? The Bishop of Mostar is the aurthority in all matters of faith and morals and he has spoken clearly on the matter of the alleged apparitions in Medjugorje. It is of an outmost importance that all people who are seeking help in the position of the Church regarding Medjugorje go to the Diocesan website before they take any position that is beyond what the Church has taken so far.
In the Diocese of Mostar’s website there are lots of great information for people who are still adamant to defend something that is unknown even to the Catholic Church until today. The past commissions have rendered that there is no proof of supernaturality in the visions of Medjugorje. There is a Vatican commission going on this year that checking the alleged apparitions and all other commissions. So we have to wait. But, for the moment, the authority is the Bishop of Mostar and in the website there are lots and lots of great explanations for most questions on this phenomenom. If people bellieve that the Holy Spirit is present in Medjugorje thanks to the faithful who come there with open hearts, then one must also believe that
the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church there, and the Church’s head there is Bishop Peric.
The Holy Spirit is the Uniter and not a divider, thus we must accept that HE works with both, the head of the Church in Medjugorje, Bishop Peric, and with the faithful who go there. His actions and gifts should be able to make a symphony not a fight.
I believe that the Holy Spirit has spoken thru the words of the Bishops, Bishop Zanic, and Bishop Peric. Listen to the subtle truth behind their homilies and letters found in the Diocesan website as you would listen to your own Dioscesan Website.
I advise everyone to read all letters found in the Diocese of Mostar’s website and think, and pray for the Holy Spirit to iluminate your mind and heart.
here is the website: cbismo.com
There you would find when the Bishop asked the seers to cease with the public manifestations and messages in the parish and also you will find when he says that” we cannot behave as if these “apparitions” are authentic and approved.”
You will also find there an explanation on what are the heresies proclaimed by the messages of the “alleged Gospa of Medjugorje”.
It is important to go with the Church in order that we are not confused or deceived and the best thing is to listen to the local ordinary because he is the one to whom
the Holy Spirit will use to compose the Symphony if there is true music to be found there, or heavenly interventions.
May God bless you,
Mrs. R
Heresay will not suffice, Knowing Sceptic; please provide what Mary actually said in the apparition and precisely what Catholic teaching it supposedly contradicts.
The seers have not disobeyed the local Bishop in any command that he has the authority to give. Again, provide specifics if you believe otherwise.
I must say, from your last post it appears you have not even read my blog entry that you are responding to
Wayne Weible, a person who strongly supports Medj. and has produced many videos and books about it, has quoted the Virgin Mary as saying in a Medj. video, that a certain person in the local village was a saint. When the seers pointed out that she was a Muslim, the apparition said that “all religions are equal in God’s sight, only men draw the lines between them” – as I’ve already said.
James (11 August 2010) has already pointed out the ERRORS condemned by Pope Pius IX, and is what I was replying to:
” There are a number of messages that do line up with the errors codemned by Pope Pius IX.
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. — Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. — Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849. ”
All of these ERRORS contradict what the apparition of the ‘Virgin Mary’ has said via a quote by Wayne Weible.
If you do not already know the scripture passages that state that only belief in Jesus Christ will bring eternal salvation, then you obviously have not read the Bible or know anything about the true teachings of the one and only true Catholic Church.
It is easy to be fooled into following a cult that seems to be practicing the true teachings of the Church – mass, confession, fasting, prayer, etc. – while also propagating false doctrines and ideologies in messages.
If the seers have not disobeyed the Bishop, then why aren’t they allowed to use the local churches? I saw one seer in Australia when he toured over a decade ago, and that was also in a park environment. Why aren’t they allowed to use the Catholic churches for venues?
The quote – THE VIRGIN’S OWN WORDS:
“Tell the priest and everyone, that it is you who have divided yourselves on earth. THE MUSLIMS AND THE ORTHODOX AS WELL AS THE CATHOLICS ARE ALL EQUAL BEFORE MY SON AND BEFORE ME …”
– can be found on this website, along with many, many other contradictions and lies of the seers. http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/medjugorjeRICK.html
Daniel you sound to much like you worship Mary instead of God in scripture its to God through our Lord Yeshua its simple as that and I’m sure real mother Mary would say the same
If the Medj. apparitions are authenticaly from the Virgin Mary, then answer these basic truths: Why is the Virgin Mary telling the seers to disobey the local Bishop by not telling him the secrets? Why are the seers disobeying the Pope by not telling him the secrets? Why would the Virgin Mary encourage the seers to disobey the Bishop and Pope when she is the Mother of the Catholic Church? Why are the seers so secular in style and choice of partners eg, bleached hair, married to a beauty queen, etc? Why are the seers living luxurious lifestyles from the profits they make from pilgrims and tours? What happens if the priests they tell their secrets to deem that it’s not necessary to tell anybody what the secrets are, leading cult followers on a merry goose chase because they love to worship secrecy? Why would the Virgin Mary give 5 people the privilege of knowing 10 secrets if they are not going to tell anybody what they are – except to put them on a pedestal as cult leaders? Lucia of Fatima wrote her secrets on paper and gave it to the Vatican with the promise that the envelope would be opened in 1960 – why don’t the Medj. seers do the same? At least they would be being obedient to the Church – which is compulsory for all Catholics.
It is not what is happening at Medj. that is so bad – but the behaviour of the seers on those simple truths – obedience and secular lifestyles.
Medjugorje: Modernist, Masonic Rome’s Potemkin Village.
It is not a continuation of Fatima, but the eclipse of it; just as Divine Mercy eclipses the very traditional devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus; the Novus Ordo is an eclipse of the Canonized Roman Mass; Vatican II and the church spawned from it eclipsed the Roman Catholic Church; the conciliar “church” just merely usurped the Catholic name to confuse, obsure, eclipse, rape, and dupe!
Wake up!
Here we see what I think is an underlying sentiment of many who reject Medjugorje; an irrational hatred of anything that is new. I like to remind these people that the rosary itself was once new, as was the Catholic Church.
Daniel have to remind you that it is to God through our Lord Yeshua that is in the scriptures Marian didn’t speak much. We do not need to look for signs and wonders God is real close to all of us when you pray he will reviel himself to you 100 percent. Just open your heart don’t look at statues wonders talk to God like you would to a person beside you .I have experienced that and its wonderful
You Actually feel like you are with Him .like our Lord Yeshua said kingdom of God is here now within you
I love to talk to God, and I know He is next to me. That doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with statues.
Hi. I to have been to medjugorje twice and i must say my life has changed for the better,i no this is through me going to medjugorje,and i love it so much there,the people are so faithful.I did not see any miricales,except the risen Christ statue,I was told that the fluid that weeps through the knee is actual tears and has been tested,I do not no if this is true or not,also the sun on first trip,but i have seen that here also. Just recently I saw a post and vidio on utube of Vicka having apparition,that the cameraman had seen,were he poked his finger at Vicka’s eye when she was seeing our blessed Mother,and this vidio was slowed down and she did move backwards,and her eye shut when the mans finger came at her face,Vicka said she thought blessed mother was going to drop baby Jesus. This has made me think a little different,i keep praying about it,but i do find it strange that at that moment when the camerman or who ever did this to Vicka the visionary that she moved ,and her one eye shut as shown in slow motion on film,it just seems very strange to me and it has made me doubt a little now about it being true,i do hope it is true of course but can anyone shed any light on this for me please,i was hoping to go to medjugorje Oct but after seeing that i thought I will wait for the vatican when they come to the decision.Does anyone no if this is a faked vidio,it suppose to have happened,and even so wouldn’t someone if seeing Our blessed move with baby Jesus as to drop Him,wouldnt they move forward not backwards?It looks like she is startled,only a little,but it clearly shows her eye shutting at the finger coming at it.Hope someone knows about this,and can explain to me.God bless.
Thank you Dan for sharing your e-mail. I visited Medjugorje in 1988 as an atheist and returned to the states as a believer. I will always be grateful to Our Lord for sending His beautiful mother to Medjugorje who led me to Her Son. God Bless.
Well, documentation regarding Medgugorge and what is going on there has been available for several years. Why do you consider it was necessary for you to go there to testify to the truth of these events. I think you are indulging in a little spiritual pride. Its simple – where there is reconciliation and conversion there is God.
Mrs. A – point out one single heresy and I will gladly abandon Medjugorje.
Sorry Michele you have no idea what you are speaking of and are misleading souls. Mejagorie messages are full of Heresy and the Vatican knows it. Please review church doctrine, then review the messages again. You need moe education. Mrs A
I saw Jakov in Little Rock Arkansas and he knelt down at the Alter and proceeded to have an Apparition, the poor souls that were present believed this charlitan in believing Jakov could command Our Lady at any moment. How dare he. Yes, there is a real Catholic church in Mejagorie and the Abomination is not allowed in it. That is why the cannot speak in there. Even the elect will be fooled…if possible.
You are confused I think, Mrs. A. Mary commanded Jakov, not the other way around. This is how Church-approved apparitions happened as well, so what is your complaint?
All I can say to Bro. James, my brother in Christ and Mary, and to everybody out there who still have doubts and unbelief about the apparitions of our Heavenly Mother in Medjugorje, NO WORD of what we say about the miracles after miracles that countless number of pilgrims have experienced in this CHOSEN PLACE will change their thinking and attitude about Medjugorje. The Blessed Mother has said that for those WHO HAVE FAITH, NO EXPLANATION is NEEDED. And for THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE! We just pray for them and allow the HOLY SPIRIT to touch and enlighten them.
May God’s LOVE and PEACE be with us all and to continue living the messages of our Heavenly Mother to PRAY, PRAY, PRAY. She thanks us always for responding to Her Call.
I already typed a comment twice and am awaiting moderation whatever that means.
bottom line ….for thsoe who believe no explanation is necessary for those who do nto belive no expalnation will suffice
Laity Brotherhood of the Passion of Chriist
of Sanctuary House – apostolate Ctr of Our Lady of the Flwoers-Souls
Albany New York
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Dan, your experiences and reasoning are solid, but what shines through is your faith. The same thing happened to me on my first trip there in 89. My husband who is methodist, wanted me to go but I wrote down 12 reasons why I couldn’t. Each one fell away as a block to the trip; including renewing my passport. Miraculous events occurred there for me and several others in our group. The peace I gained from that trip and one I took with some youth the following year returns to me when I am in front of the Blessed Sacrament. I hope you have a chance to return. My husband plans to go with me now that we are both retired. God bless you for sharing. Lynda
I have given my format of objections; but I have not been appointed by the Vatican to do the homework. I am sure they will be rejected; but I will not over step my boundaries. God bless and keep you.
James
The church maintains a position of scrutiny in events such as this not skepticism. Scrutiny allows for the movement of the Holy Spirit to move as he will and distribute the graces he will distribute. I prayed to go to Medjugorje only if the Blessed Mother provided the ticket. She did and spending money from folks I didn’t expect. I smelled the roses in March when no roses were in bloom and witnessed the unity of the Body of Christ being present in christians from around the world all praying the same words in their own language. Medjugorje is a foretaste of heaven on earth. I believe in the messages which simply boils down to: daily mass, confession, rosary, fasting and reading sacred scripture. Praise be Jesus for this gift to us! The question is are we doing what the Blessed Mother is asking us to do in the light of skepticsm? how sad if we are not responding to the call.
James, it appears at this point that your opposition to Medjugorje is based on a general sentiment instead of a solid objection. The seers, may I add, are perfectly obedient to the orders that the Bishop has the authority to make. They never speak in the parish Church, but only in the nearby public park; causing anyone who wants to hear to have to squeeze in well in advance.
But they have to speak in the local park because the Bishop does not allow them to use the Church as they are disobedient to him by not telling him what the secrets are, along with continuing other practices which he has asked them to stop.
Thank you for your testimony and video, it made me very homesick. I was last there three years ago. My life and that of many in my family have been changed by Our Blessed Mother’s appariitions in Medj., which I am convinced are authentic.
Disobedience in the past to the local ordinary is not a good fruit just as the disobedience in the garden. I cannot advise anyone to read over the messages, but if I were apart of examining this apparition on behalf of the Vatican I would have to look over every single message of each seer over the last 30 years. It could be done in light of the errors comdemned by Blessed Pius IX. And, if I were a Bishop in charge of so many souls I would not approve of it; would you? The Doctrine of the Holy Faith needs to be defended. As bishop or as a lay faithful I would not under estimate the intelligence of the evil one.
James
Can you be more specific on precisely what message lines up with which error? I am not seeing these errors in any Medjugorje message.
You are right, one error is all that is needed to condemn an apparition as false; so just present the one you think is most certainly in error.
I have heard that the Virgin Mary at Medj. has said that a local Muslim was a ‘saint’. When the seers pointed out that she was Muslim, the apparition said that all religions are equal in God’s sight and that only men draw the lines between them. Now, that is against the doctrine of the Catholic Church and teachings of scripture which state that only through belief in Jesus Christ can anybody be saved.
There is your ‘one error’!
Muslims deny ourLord how can they be saints impossible
Invincible ignorance.
Do you think all religions are equal?
Sent from my HTC
No. And Our Lady makes it very clear at Medjugorje that they are not. I hope you aren’t commenting on an article that you didn’t read.
Actually,
There are a number of messages that do line up with the errors codemned by Pope Pius IX.
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. — Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. — Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.
I would suspect the Devil would permit many souls to attend the Holy Mysteries and the sacraments to betray the truths and dogmas of the Church. I would think for any private apparition to be appoved it must be 100% free of error. I would assume this is why the number of bishops/apostles of Christ have could not approve of this site or message.
Fraternally in Christ,
there are no messages from medj. that are opposed to doctrine, but many persons are trying to sow confusion. been there, rosary turned to gold, all good fruits afterwards, it is a gift from god!
Have you been to Medjugorge James?
That’s right. I have heard that the Virgin Mary at Medj. has said that a local Muslim was a ‘saint’. When the seers pointed out that she was Muslim, the apparition said that all religions are equal in God’s sight and that only men draw the lines between them. Now, that is against the doctrine of the Catholic Church and teachings of scripture which state that only through belief in Jesus Christ can anybody be saved.
MARY did NOT say they all equal in doctrine. MEN are all equal, their love for their creator is all equal, and the muslim woman was unsurpassed in the village in her dedication to her creator, even though she had mistakenly been taught her creator was “Allah”. God accepts her devotion as it is to the best of her knowledge. You will find in all Mary’s messages at Medjugorie that the CATHOLIC faith is the complete faith, but God loves all his children equally, despite the man made religions and the divisions they have caused on earth. She says in other messages that all should come to the knowledge of the catholic faith, with the eucharist, priests , confession, fasting, prayer. Just as one should not take scripture out of context, to interpret that what she said that one time regarding that one issue is that Islam is comparable to catholicism is a distortion. That was NOT her message and don’t fall for the distortion. She says catholicism is the true faith. Been to Medj. 10 years ago, my silver rosary turned bright gold. You have to go to believe it. It is like a patch of heaven has been installed on earth- the supernatural atmosphere of heavenly peace and tranquility and love is unmatched anywhere else on earth. that is because it is an ACTIVE apparition place , the graces fall like rain there, you can feel the presence of God so strongly- and that’s why the fruits have been astounding over all these years. GO SEE FOR YOURSELF AND YOU WILL NEVER REGRET IT!
I enjoyed your article. I, too, was in Medjugorje last March and it was a truly blessed experience. I thank my Heavenly Mother for inviting me there and for showing herself to me in many wonderful ways. I can only say that only Almighty can do certain things. I am forever grateful to Him who was is and will be.
Maria